See, I CAN have calm, clear-headed discussions on religion!

[amadeupname]

Him: Hello.
Me: Um, hi, who's this?
Him: This is Theopneustos.
Him: "Hate the sin, love the sinner."
Me: Oh.
Him: Good, I'm not the only one who says, "Oh."
Him: Anyway, I read your lengthy post.
Me: Okay...
Him: Why do you think it's not possible for someone to love the person, but hate what they committed?
Me: It's not quite as clear-cut as that. I didn't feel like trying explain it in my post, as it would make it that much longer and some people would probably just scratch their heads and go "Huh?"
Him: But, can you give me a reason?
Me: Yeah, sure.
Me: Let's say that you meet someone at the mall. You get into a conversation with him, and you think he's an interesting fellow and might be a good friend, given the appropriate amount of time needed to get to know him.
Me: So you're about to get his number or give him yours, and you find out somehow that he's a homosexual.
Him: Okay?
Me: Lemme think of how to word, this, I know what I'm trying to say, just not how to say it so you understand...
Him: All right.
Me: By realizing that a person posesses an attribute that you find negative, your opinion of them changes. Given that you have not known this person for more than thirty minutes to an hour or so, this will more than likely RADICALLY change your opinion of him, especially depending on what your views on homosexuals are.
Me: Therefor, you're falling into the trap of judging people.
Him: Am I?
Him: Who am I to judge?
Him: That's God's business.
Me: "Because he's a homosexual, he (fill in the blank)" is the usual response.
Me: Ah, but!
Him: Instead, I would love the person, because that's who he is, a person.
Me: It may not be your place to judge, but that wouldn't STOP you (or other people)
Him: Really?
Him: Who's to say?
Me: Okay, what about a convicted sex offender?
Him: What about a convicted sex offender?
Him: What about Michael Jackson?
Me: Say the guy raped a little girl YEARS ago, and was apparently reformed.
Me: You've known the guy for half an hour. you find this out. What are you going to think?
Him: I'm not sure if what he has done, is true or not, but when people make fun of him or call him names, because of what he supposedly done, I think to myself, "That's not right for people to make fun of him."
Him: If he was reformed, more power to him.
Him: I wouldn't agree with what he did, but he's still a person. Again, who am I to judge?
Me: Can you honestly hold a position like that at any given time?
Him: What do you mean?
Me: Would you feel that way towards someone who had, say, raped and killed your mother?
Me: Or would you want justice?
Him: I cannot say, really, because my mom is still alive and well.
Him: Let me tell you something.
Him: I read my Bible today, in the Book of Ezekiel, and it talked about dying in sin. It said that if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does right, his wickedness will be remembered no more. But if a righteous man turns away from righteousness and does wickedness, his righteousness will not be remembered. Now, I am against wicked acts that have been committed, but I must always remember that I am not one to judge, and I must always remember that the person is still a human being. God will deal with people, because He is the Judge. I might have some hard times of thinking, "How could he have done this?" It's still the act, and I should love my neighbor, regardless of their social background or whatever. And I should remember that without love, I am nothing.

Hold on. Let me explain further.
Him: I find sins wrong. I sin, and I am no better than anyone else. The Bible says that whoever does not murder, but commits adultery, is a lawbreaker, for the one who said, "Do not murder," also said, "Do not commit adultery." Therefore, I am a lawbreaker. I'm no better than anyone else. I'm no better than you. I am no better than a rapist, murderer, liar, theif, adulterer, nor anyone else. I will confess, it is hard sometimes, to love those who hurt me. But I know what it's like to go through some serious problems, even aftering being cursed at and hated towards. I've had my troubles where people hated me, and made fun of me. But all I really could do was pray for them. Now, they're my friends, and I have no problem with them, and I'm their friend.

I guess that's all I have to say for now.
Me: Mmm. I can see what you mean. I just can't agree with it, probably because I've seen first hand the difference between ideals and human behavior, and which one wins out in the end.
Him: Please clarify.
Me: Hate the sin, love the sinner, is a nice ideal; but that's all it is, is an ideal. You may be able to follow it, and for that I commend you, I really do. But while you seem to really get the underlying message, there are a lot of people who just can't let go of their hate, and use that phrase to hide behind while they judge other people. And that's not the minority, either. Human history and nature is full of violence, hatred, and anger. Human beings are inherently distrustful of anything or anyone different.
Him: People who can't let go of hate should probably just let it go. Well, if hating a person.
Him: I hate sin, but I sin. Have you heard about Marc Wesson?
Me: nope
Him: Oh.
Him: Well, Marc Wesson done some pretty wicked stuff, and it's something I do not agree on.
Him: Eh, I don't know why I brought him up.
Him: Sorry.
Me: Okay?
Me: Now I'm just confused.
Him: Okay, if memory serves, he murdered people in his family, and he is now in court.
Him: What do you think of that?
Me: I think he did a horrible thing and that he should be punished for it.
Him: Okay. But do you hate him?
Me: No, but then his actions did not directly affect me.
Me: If he had killed, say, members of MY family, I'd hate him, yes.
Him: Okay. It just affected a city, which I live in.
Him: Okay.
Him: Do you think you could ever forgive him?
Me: It depends on whether he truly is sorry and 'repents', so to speak. If he does, I'd forgive him. If he didn't give a shit, I wouldn't.
Him: Ah.
Him: Well, okay.
Him: I can see.
Him: Justice will be served.
Me: Good.
Me: I'm sorry that it happend.
Him: And I can see that you went with what was written in Ezekiel.
Him: lol
Me: What do you mean?
Me: Please keep in mind, I've only read snippets of the Bible. Never the whole thing.
Him: Those who turn away from wickedness and do what is right will be saved. Those who are righteous and do what is wicked, will perish.
Him: I found it a bit interesting that you said that if the person repented, then you would forgive him.
Him: But if he does not, you would not care.
Him: About him.
Me: Well, that depends what you mean by don't care.
Me: I wouldn't care about him personally, but if he were released, I would be very cautious if I knew he was in the area.
Him: "If he does, I'd forgive him. If he didn't give a ****, I wouldn't."
Him: I read from a book called The Case For Faith, and it talked about a man who was a murderer and was on deathrow. But some Christians came to him, and he said that he never knew about Christ. From there, he changed his life, and he told people in the prison about Christ. He changed his ways. He was reformed. He was then not on deathrow afterwards, and everyone was convinced that he changed. He would go on the streets and tell people about his past life, and how he changed. In other words, he preached to people. It is quite interesting. And it's something to also think about.
Him: See? I believe that it is right to say "Hate the sin, love the sinner."
Him: I know that God hates sin, but it is also written that God so loved the world that He sent His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life.
Him: I think I'm going away and preaching. >.>
Him: lol
Him: Um, anyway, thank you for the little discussion. I liked it. *nods* I think it was better to talk over AIM, rather than posting on Gaia about this.
Him: Well, see you around.
Me: Okay.
Me: I rather enjoyed this conversation. I wasn't as angry as usual.
Him: Yeah. No need to be angry. lol
Him: Sometimes, that's hard in a discussion, because personally, I think that sometimes, you should be a bit tough in a discussion. But, okay.
Him: Good-bye.
Me: Well, I usually get upset when I'm being misunderstood. Which you didn't do. SO I'm happy.
Me: bye.

See? No anger, no outrage, and only one swear word! Wee!

Comments

[evil-dori54.livejournal.com]

Quite honestly, I have to commend you for your patience. XD; I'm pretty good with debating on religion and whatnot, but when it comes to having someone on an opposing side talking to me, I would get pretty frustrated. So power to you.

[kchanzeal.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I agree with both of you...

[niiea.livejournal.com]

Ugh...yikes. I have to say, I don't agree with either of you... but then again, you aren't on totally opposite ends of the spectrum.